Katarína Mathernová is a representative of the highest level of European bureaucrats responsible for relations with Ukraine. She heads the EU Support Group for Ukraine in the EU. She is also the Deputy Director-General of the European Neighbourhood and Enlargement Negotiations.

Mathernová is known in Kyiv as one of the most significant friends of Ukraine in Brussels. She regularly visits Kyiv, has been taking care of Ukrainian issues for a long time, and knows both the shortcomings and the advantages of Ukraine in comparison with the EU states and the EU neighbours.

After February 24, Ukraine has been able to surprise even her! In our interview, you will hear what it is all about and learn important details about the EU perspective and post-war recovery.

"You didn't cross the red line between courageous and crazy"

- You were in Brussels, or maybe at home, in Bratislava when Ukraine declared it would apply for EU membership. What was your first reaction?
- I thought it was a very courageous and very good move. A natural move from my Ukrainian friends who say we want to fight this war for our place in Europe. I'm delighted after all our work over the last several years. After the work we have done on the opinion, it was possible to reach a consensus among the EU Member States to grant Ukraine and Moldova candidate status. It was not obvious even days or weeks before that decision. It was going to be this way. So I'm really, really happy that we had a positive decision.

- When you say it was a courageous step. When does courageous become crazy?
- I don't think it crossed the red line between courageous and crazy. I think it was welcome for some, and for some, it was not as understandable. I mean, one thing needs to be very clear. There is no consensus in Europe on enlarging the European Union yet. It's something that we need to work on. That's why some people perceived it early in the war with surprise. But the friends of Ukraine said it was a natural sort of yearning. This is what happened on the Maidan in 2014. It was about the association agreement. So now, when came another terrible military aggression from Russia, this was the natural next step in this sense.

- When the Russian military was near Kyiv, I published a video blog explaining what was going on and what the EU application meant. I got a message from one, as you say, of friends of Ukraine in the EU. That person selected one sentence I said that Ukraine would be an EU member one day.
- I very much would agree that's a correct assessment. But just to go also back to your previous question. One thing needs to be clear - not many people knew Ukraine. You know the sovietologs became russologs.

Kids did not learn about Ukraine outside of Ukraine in schools. There were a lot of Russian narratives and propaganda about Ukraine. So people in Europe and the whole world, but in Europe, I feel it very strongly, started discovering Ukraine through the war and the refugees. They realised they were bringing their pets. They are like us. It was the real rise of solidarity.

Your EU application, for many, was puzzling. It makes a lot more sense now.

- It looks quite cynical, but Putin made Ukraine's EU accession possible.
- First of all, Putin solidified the Ukrainian nation. That already happened between 2014 and now. He made it now even more cohesive. He's the one who created the Ukrainian political nation.

This country was always split between East and West, Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers, East looking and West looking. Ukraine was playing the geopolitical game of being somewhere in between. It was after 2014, after the Maidan, and even after the occupation of Crimea and Donbas. That created solidified the Ukrainian nation. The war just finished that job very thoroughly.

- He also united us behind the idea of European identity.
- I also think that two things must have surprised Putin. First, if he knew the state of affairs in his own army, he might not have made that step. Second, it's very clear that he expected the West not to be united. He expected the European Union not to be united. I think this very much surprised him because we've been able to act in a unified way.

"One Ukraine's feature is the most remarkable"

- Ukraine obtained seven requirements it has to fulfill when granted candidacy. What does it mean?
- These were not the strict conditions for candidate status. You are a candidate country. So is Moldova. But as a candidate country, we have an understanding; you will do these seven steps. We have that kind of relationship of trust and interaction. These need to be done for any discussion of future steps. But that doesn't mean it's not a conditional candidate status. You are a candidate country.

I'm very happy to see that a number of them have already been fulfilled, for example, the appointment of the specialised anti-corruption prosecutor and the Ethics Committee. You have also completed work on implementing the anti-oligarchic law and the framework for national minorities. I understand correctly the process of selection of the new head of NABU is starting in September. So there is very good progress. So these are the things we expect to see progress and eventually finish them.

- What happens next? After the fulfillment of these requirements, we open negotiations.
- No. The negotiations are a separate process. I'm talking from my personal experience because I'm from Slovakia. It went through negotiations that lasted years.

They're called negotiations, but they're not really negotiations.

It is about the absorption of European norms, rules, directives, and regulations into the domestic legal system.

Each step in the enlargement process requires a unanimous agreement of all the Member States. And there are many steps. Unfortunately, it is not a sprint. It is a marathon with a lot of roadblocks on the way and hurdles. One needs to clear the next one. So once there is a regular report on Ukraine's progress, which will be expected in the cycle of 2023.

We will start preparing it in January or February of the next year. Then, one can discuss the opening of negotiations. But again, you will have to build a lot of consensus around that and build momentum for this to happen.

Right now, the most primordial and most important step in our relationship is to sustain the support and even increase it to help you win the war.

- Can we say it is impossible to open negotiations before October 2023?
- If you had asked me in January 2022 whether you would be a candidate country in June, it looked impossible, right? But it became possible. I would hate to say something is impossible, but it's very unlikely. You don't have to do this quickly. This is not something you do for us. It's good for the country.

One of the aspects of the war that has been so extraordinary over the last half a year is the institutions' and society's resilience. The government functions, the civil society functions, the army obviously functions and the Rada works and adopts laws. I mean, this has been the most remarkable.

You were the ones who organised the humanitarian deliveries, unlike other countries at wars where one has to rely on outside actors. 

"You need huge sums"

- Will Ukraine be able to survive this winter?
- I very much hope. I think it's going to be difficult. It's going to be difficult in Europe, but it's going to be extraordinarily difficult in Ukraine. I'm thinking of the millions of internally displaced people who lost their homes, whose houses or apartments were bombed, and who are in temporary shelters.

- Can the European Union help Ukraine live through the winter easier?
- We are helping in several ways. I oversee the programmes that are giving grants to larger cities and smaller municipalities. They can invest themselves in the rehabilitation of schools, and municipal buildings, to offer shelters as well as winterize houses. Our colleagues that deal with humanitarian assistance provide a lot of winterized tents.

I am worried about people in the old Soviet-style buildings, which are not well isolated. We have been working with several partners on energy efficiency. We supported this fund for energy efficiency several years ago. Many buildings have already been renovated, but obviously not sufficient amounts.

Let me just say that whatever we do is nowhere near your needs.

The World Bank presented a report we participated in and contributed to together with the Ukrainian government. The direct damage and needs assessment came with a total figure of 350 billion euros of war damage. Around 100 billion direct damage to infrastructure. But it was as of the end of May. Since June q there has been a lot more damage. The figure is higher in reality.

We will update regularly, but the final precise amount will only be known once the war is over. Anyways, this sum is huge.

Minister Chernyshov mentioned the sum for this year to fulfill all the needs would be around 3.4 billion.

- Is it possible to secure that funding from some donors?
- I very much hope so. But 3,5 billion is a big figure, which obviously needs to be updated as the war continues.

- The only source that can cover this huge sum is seized Russian assets. Are there any discussions on this matter?
- I think there are very active discussions on what can be done. I know about active discussions in the United States, also in Europe. There are sensitive discussions because it needs to deal with the legal order in different jurisdictions. I wouldn't want to speculate on how this can be done, but this is actively looked at.

- How do you see Ukraine's rebuilding? Can you outline it?
- I see three levels. The Alpha and Omega of everything is to help you survive during the war. And win the war, right? To have the government function, you need arm deliveries. It would help if you also had financial resources for the government to function, to pay for services, pay salaries, pensions, buy materials, et cetera. It's insignificant. I think this really needs to be stressed as the first priority.

The priority of rehabilitating the key damaged infrastructure that you need. So if there is a key bridge, you either need to rebuild it quickly, or you need to have a pontoon bridge or a way of crossing the river. Or if a railway is damaged, you need to lay the new tracks so the trains can continue working.

I see the restructuring and reconstruction going forward as very important, but there will not be reconstruction unless the 1st and 2nd happen.

Intervied by Sergiy Sydorenko

Filmed by Volodymyr Oliinyk

"European Pravda"