Lithuanian politician Gabrielius Landsbergis would undoubtedly top any ranking of the most pro-Ukrainian foreign ministers in the EU, even though the word "former" has recently been added to his title. 

He doesn't just say the right things in public. He's also worked hard behind the scenes to secure weapons for Ukraine and obtain permission for their use, particularly from the US. 

Landsbergis was sceptical of the previous US administration’s policy on Russia’s war against Ukraine, criticising Biden’s team for their indecisiveness and willingness to compromise. This lends even greater weight to his assessment of the actions of the Trump administration. After all, Landsbergis is a politician from the right-wing Christian Democratic party, and Trump’s Republicans are, in theory, closer allies ideologically. 

But right now, both Ukraine and Europe must prepare for the potential loss of their partnership with the US. In this interview with Gabrielius Landsbergis in Kyiv, we discussed how Ukraine can avoid even greater mistakes, the growing influence of China, and the divvying up of the world among the "three empires". Landsbergis was in Kyiv to attend Three Years – Time to Win, a special Yalta European Strategy meeting, on 24 February 2025. 

His assessments may seem overly pessimistic or harsh, but they also represent a realistic perspective on the events now unfolding.

"Putin has caught Trump and trapped him"  

Would you agree that we have lost the United States?

I would say that now we have to prepare for a fight against Russia where the United States is more aligned with Russia rather than with us.

Does that mean we have lost? Well, the word "lost" is permanent. But as you know, there is a chance that President Trump would tweet something next week which would contradict his statements last week. It is possible.

Look, Washington has been fighting for the AfD to be elected in Germany.

But on Sunday night [after the release of an exit poll indicating that the CDU was winning – ed.], President Trump said that the Christian Democrats winning is the best thing for America. I wouldn’t say he has a particularly straightforward policy, with clear goals.

People say that is one of his principles: always claim victory, no matter what happens.

Yeah. The biggest problem with Trump is that Putin has caught him and trapped him. Trump is trapped because he wanted a fast deal, and Putin said: "I can give you a fast deal, if nothing else matters."

And that "nothing else matters" means that Putin is getting everything.

A small detail: when I asked you whether you would agree that we have lost the US, you did not ask me to specify who "we" are.

That’s because in this fight I see Ukraine's and Europe’s goal as one.

It has always been so. It's the West that is fighting in Ukraine against Russia, and Ukraine is part of the West. Culturally and historically, that’s also true.

And what about NATO? Has NATO lost the United States?

Same answer.

There is a very real concern about how NATO will function with the position the United States currently has.

Also, it’s clear that Putin is asking Trump to end the US military presence in Europe. I never had a doubt that he would be asking for that. And if Putin says "Either you do it or you don't have the fast deal",  this would mean President Trump is caught in the trap again.

"For Xi, his empire has to be bigger than the US"

There is a legitimate question in the US – why should they keep their troops in Europe, a continent with two nuclear states? That’s why the United States is switching its priority to China.

I wouldn't completely agree with that. If the United States is switching to China, we have to witness this. I think that China is currently winning from everything that is happening.

For them, it is like a second Chinese New Year this year.

Because from their perspective, it looks like the world is being redivided. Trump has his own territorial ambitions – Greenland, Panama, Canada. Russia has its own imperial ambitions – Ukraine, parts of Europe, the Baltics, who knows. And China has their own.

So from the Chinese perspective: let's divide the world in three, and everybody gets what they have on their own agenda.

So Trump attacking his allies is actually losing to China.

Regarding the Chinese focus of US policy, it looks as if what is being done by the Trump administration is making China stronger. Yet I believe Trump genuinely wants to make China weaker.

No, I don't think so.

If you imagine that there are three rightful empires in the world, you’ll get the answer.

Three empires, having the right to exist and to divide the world – Trump sees it as a balance. His empire is bigger, but he respects other empires and emperors.

He has always said: I respect Xi. I respect Putin.

But there’s an issue. For Xi, his empire always has to be bigger.

Because that is the Kingdom under Heaven. You know there is Heaven, then China one level below, then everybody else below China. So in any game, in any war, in any geopolitical situation, China's plan is to come out on top.

And they are on their way.

They are on their way, yeah.

Even more, now China can repeat the Kissinger strategy. You know, in the 1970s, when the Soviet Union was in a great disagreement with China, Kissinger saw an opportunity and attacked in the middle and broke the Chinese-Soviet alliance.

Now, China clearly sees the rift between the United States and Europe, which reminds them of those days. So Xi can attack the Western alliance by offering many things to Europe.

And they are already doing that. They are even offering security guarantees to Ukraine.

The most paradoxical thing, that actually breaks my mind, is that China can actually offer a better deal!

Some people say that Trump may be pursuing a strategy to agree with Putin on joint actions against Xi.

That’s nonsense, but it could be an idea that they had. The US could have thought of it. But you have to dig a little bit deeper into Russo-Chinese cooperation.

China does not take Russia seriously. For them, Russia is a tiny part, like one of the Chinese provinces. Russia’s territory is big, but economically, Russia is not on their map.

Russia is completely dependent on China. There can’t be any disagreement. I'm not sure if Putin would even promise Trump cooperation against China [not to say he would dare to do so – EP].

But if Trump does have this plan, will his attitude towards Putin survive after he sees that Putin doesn’t play this game? He will definitely see that.

Trump can become a victim of his own policy. For politicians, it happens sometimes: when you declare a policy, it fails, but you cannot admit that it failed.

Not with Trump: he can just turn his back on his policy and say "That’s what I planned" and claim a "great victory", whatever happens. So is it possible that when Putin betrays Trump with regard to his expectations on China, Trump will get angry and we will end up with a very different US administration?

It could be. But for now, there are no signs that this scenario is materialising.

"Biden for me was like Chamberlain, but worse"

Don't you think that for Trump, it’s not just about being caught in Putin's trap? This could be his own policy, too. Ukraine is not something that matters to Trump. Could he be thinking "Maybe it’s good to give Ukraine to Putin in exchange for something"?

That’s true. And if we agree that Trump’s worldview is that of three empires dividing the world, then the only thing that is left to be determined is where the borders go.

Does he care about the borders in Europe?

Not too much.

It can go through Donbas, it can go Ukraine-Poland, it can go through the middle of Poland. It’s just imperial conquest, and you have to settle somewhere.

I have a sense that this might actually be his worldview.

Then it is understandable that he doesn't care. And not only about Ukraine. It goes beyond that: he doesn't care about the allies either.

And he doesn't. Canada and Denmark can confirm that.

I believe so.

He is the first leader of this kind.

Historically, it is very difficult to find any other leader to compare him with.

Biden, for me, was like Chamberlain.

A person who honestly believed that by de-escalation he can achieve peace. That’s why he was trying to appease the Russians, care for the Russians, give the Russians what they want.

That was a failed strategy, but this is how I think he thought.

Now we have a leader who just doesn't care.

But definitely not Churchill, who replaced Chamberlain.

Oh, no!

He doesn't care.

It’s way beyond anything that Biden did. It’s much, much worse.

And don't get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend Biden. I was always very critical about his policy.

And it’s hard to defend Chamberlain.

Since I’m a historian, I’m interested in the context in which decisions are made. Chamberlain was driven by naivety, and he might have not known what his actions could lead to; he did not have a historic example.

Biden had the historic example of Chamberlain – and he still did that.

So that’s not naivety.

But what is happening now is incomparably worse.

We’ve got to a situation where Putin does not need to betray Trump, as he is already getting all he wants. For now, the Russians are in an excellent position.

"We have to admit that America has gone at this stage"

What should Ukraine do in all this mess?

Keep fighting, push for time, and don’t sign up to anything.

Do not sign up to any deals, minerals, political deals – nothing. Even if Trump blackmails you.

It’s up to you now. Your best bet is your own power that you have.

And it is probably wise to prepare for more difficult times. Because I'm sure that if Ukraine and Europe reject Trump's deal, Putin will escalate.

Also, in that case Trump can cut US assistance both to Ukraine and to Europe in general. It clearly can happen.

How would we manage to survive then?

Europe has the resources.

We are so used to hearing that America is an irreplaceable partner and we can’t survive without US support.

Look, we [Lithuanians] are in the same boat. For 30 years, we've built everything that we have in our country based on super-strong transatlantic bonds.

For us, American troops, the American flag, was the symbol of freedom – of our freedom.

And now we have to admit that at least at this stage, all of that is gone.

It’s time for Ukraine to do the same.

Do you think Ukrainians, and your former colleagues who are still in power, understand that and are ready to accept that?

The world is changing very fast.

Future German chancellor Friedrich Merz, in his first interview after the elections, basically said that his goal is to prepare Europe to fight without the United States.

So even Germany, a country with strong post-war ties with the United States and a decades-long joint history with the US, will have a centrist government saying: this is over.

And Ukraine should also realise that.

Then times will be difficult for Ukraine.

President Zelenskyy is playing it smart here. He shouldn't be saying, like Merz is, and like you asked in your first question of this interview, "We’ve lost the United States."

If it’s possible to cooperate, you have to cooperate.

But when it goes against your interests, especially as radically as with the mineral deal, you just don't cooperate there. And then diversify.

There are some elements of US support that can’t be diversified, starting with Starlink.

Well, Umierov said yesterday that Ukraine is working on an alternative.

And you believe that it is possible for Ukraine to survive.

You have to.

"Until Putin is defeated, there will be war"

What should Europe do?

Europe should take care of its own defence for sure.

At this stage, Europe should either switch gears immediately during these days and weeks, or Europe is in the greatest danger that there ever was.

And there are ways to do that!

I'm always giving the same example: the €190 billion in European banks, the frozen Russian assets.

Quite a few countries do not agree with confiscating these assets, and I don't know whether that would happen. I don't know if Europe will wake up – maybe it's dead already. Maybe, you know, in a week Ukraine will find out that you have lost both the US and Europe, and there is nothing else.

It can happen.

But if Europe wants to be alive, if it wants to survive, it can.

If we spent that 190 billion on weapons for Ukraine – that’s a lot of money. That's a lot of weapons, a lot of ammunition.

Three times more than the Americans gave in these three years!

And I think the Americans would sell their weapons too, as this is a lot of money, a significant amount even for the US.

And for Putin, it is actually leverage, and we have to tell him that no matter the deal, this money will never go back to him.

If we will say it, I don't know, but let's hope for better. We just don't have any other way.

And the last question. Everyone says that this year is decisive. Do you believe that the war will end this year?

It's possible to have a ceasefire.

But until Putin is defeated, there will be war.

… Or dead?

Defeated. But maybe time will defeat him.

Sergiy Sydorenko

Editor, European Pravda