Tribunal on Russian aggression to start in 2025, no objections from Trump – interview

The Council of Europe, a human rights organisation primarily designed for dialogue rather than punishment, has undergone dramatic changes since the start of Russia's full-scale war against Ukraine. 

It was the first international organisation to expel Russia, in March 2022. At a summit in the spring of 2023, the CoE established a fundamentally new international mechanism – the Register of Damage caused by Russia. But it seems its most significant achievements are yet to come. 

For three years, Ukraine and several international partners have been negotiating the creation of a Special Tribunal that would prosecute the Russian leadership for committing the crime of aggression against Ukraine. Most of this work has been going on behind closed doors, but it has now reached the final stage. A recent tribunal development meeting in Brussels was considered so significant that it was attended not only by legal experts but also by high-ranking officials such as Iryna Mudra, Deputy Head of the Ukrainian President’s Office, and Alain Berset, the new Secretary General of the Council of Europe. 

Equally importantly, the new US administration has also expressed support for the tribunal, European Pravda sources say. 

In this interview with European Pravda (video version is also available), Alain Berset explains what is happening, why it’s not just about the tribunal, and what comes next. 

"The Core Group agreed to compromises and solutions for all important elements"

This week the Core Group met in Brussels to discuss the creation of a "tribunal for Putin" – at least that’s what we call it in Ukraine. You attended this meeting in person. What agreements were reached?

It was a very important moment, and that's why I wanted to be present in Brussels and to have the occasion to speak also to the Core Group – just to make sure that everybody understands how important it is.

The question is to make sure that we will have no acceptance for impunity.

We don’t want to live in a world where force, violence, destruction and impunity will prevail. And this is not only about Ukraine. We need a world where peaceful relations, the rule of law and accountability will prevail.

That's why I wanted to be present, and also to make sure that we [in the Core Group] see the Special Tribunal as a part of a larger context, together with the second element – the Register of Damage that the Council of Europe created two years ago, which should lead to the full compensation mechanism.

And there is a third element: the European Court of Human Rights, which right now, as we speak, is addressing human rights violations in Ukraine following the aggression of Russia.

We need to have all three elements to make sure that accountability will prevail.

Let’s start with the tribunal. As I mentioned, in Ukraine, we call it the "tribunal for Putin" because Putin bears the primary responsibility for the crime of aggression. Can we be certain that Putin’s actions will be prosecuted or at least examined by the Special Tribunal?

The starting point is to see that the crime of aggression against Ukraine has been recognised. It was a decision by the United Nations in March 2022, and a huge majority of UN members accepted the text recognising the crime of aggression.

But at the moment, we have no jurisdiction or competence to address the crime of aggression at the judicial level. That is why we must create a special tribunal to address this.

We need to have the framework, to have the resources, to have the prosecutors, to have the judges, to have everything that we need for a tribunal.

And then justice must work.

We hope it will start as soon as possible.

And addressing the crime of aggression is clearly also addressing the people who decided to launch the aggression.

The timeline is also important. As far as I understand, this meeting was the penultimate one. When do you expect to have the final meeting, and for the tribunal to be established?

Last Tuesday, the Core Group agreed to compromises and solutions for all the important elements. They need one more small discussion to be sure that all the elements of the text and the agreement are OK.  

If and when it is so, the Council of Europe is ready. We are ready to act right now.

The objective must be that this year we will have the negotiations, after which we will have an international agreement. And then we need to have a diplomatic conference accepting this document. This should also happen this year.

So is 2025 realistic?

It is ambitious, but we need ambition. It is not possible just to wait, because we have this problem. The crime of aggression has been recognised by the United Nations, but we don't have a tribunal.

So we need to create one!

Our ambition is to create the tribunal this year.

"We have no negative signals from the US. We’ll see exactly what this means"

The public in Ukraine demands justice. So when do you expect the trial itself to begin?

First I should remind you that justice is already given, continuously, by the European Court on Human Rights. Since the start of the war in 2014, all violations of human rights can be addressed by the ECHR. This Court is doing its job.

The second element of justice is about the destruction of housing and deaths of family members [and compensation for that – EP]. That's why the Register of Damage was created – a key milestone in 2023.

It’s interesting to see how fast it was possible to create a fully new instrument to register damage. We have now around 13,000 cases of damage that have been registered. It is growing continuously. We are also opening new possibilities and new categories for this registry.

But we need the highest possible quality of documentation, because this will end with the question of reparation and the full compensation mechanism. We are ready to make this a reality this year.

We’ll talk about the compensation mechanism later, but first I need to clarify: are there any timeframes for when the trial for the crime of aggression might start?

It's really impossible for me to answer this question. It is important for the legitimacy and the credibility of the tribunal. It is not possible for me, on the political side, to tell the tribunal how they must work.

We must create the conditions for them to work, and then it will be their job.

So it is too early now to answer this question. Our job is to make sure that it is possible to create a special tribunal as soon as possible.

Is there a point of no return at which we can say: now the tribunal will definitely operate?

A diplomatic conference adopting the international agreement would really be that milestone for the creation of a tribunal.

Let's not ignore the elephant – or rather Trump – in the room: this tribunal will not work if it is only supported by European countries. Is there political support from the new US administration? Did you receive any political signals from Washington in Brussels?

It is important. To have a strong legitimacy for the tribunal, you need also to have strong support. For example, you need to have the G7 on board.

You also need many countries on all continents to support the tribunal and work on it. We need broad support. The G7 will be key.

You mentioned the new US administration. So far we don't have negative signals,

but we will see during the negotiations exactly what this means.

Do you have positive signals?

Yes, we’ve had very positive signals so far, because the G7 and the US are fully on board for the Register of Damage, and for all the discussion for the next elements.

The Special Tribunal is also part of the whole context: what we can do to make sure that accountability will prevail at the end.

What about the peace talks currently being discussed? Is there any connection between that process and the creation of the tribunal?

That's quite difficult to answer.

I can speak for the Council of Europe – the only thing we can do is go as fast as we can. Because with each step, we find ourselves one step further on, and our position in all the discussions about accountability becomes stronger.

"We should launch the full compensation mechanism by the end of this year"

You’ve mentioned the Register of Damage, which is a significant achievement by the Council of Europe. But for ordinary people, it’s not just important to document the damage, but to secure compensation.

Exactly. Here we made very good progress last week, too. I'm really happy with it.

You know, I went to Ukraine in December. I had many meetings in Kyiv, but I was also in Yahidne and in Chernihiv. I visited the Okhmadyt Hospital in Kyiv [which was attacked by a missile – EP].

After everything I saw, it was really important for me to also say to Ukraine: "We are ready. The Council of Europe is strongly dedicated to support for Ukraine, to accountability and the shared values that we have." We want to live in a world based on the rule of law and peaceful relations, a world where it is possible to have prospects for yourself, for your families, for your friends, for the country, for good economic development for the next generations.

But you ask: how fast?

We made good progress last week. The Council of Europe has the resources, the skills, the competencies.

We also have our experience with the Register, and that is also important here, with Claims Commission and full compensation mechanism. I think we should be able to achieve this goal this year.

So the goal for this year is to create a commission?

By the end of this year, we should create the Claims Commission and have the discussion about the full compensation mechanism.

Just like the Special Tribunal, this tool doesn't exist at the moment. We must create it, exactly as we created the Register of Damage in 2023.

A lot of people were saying: "It's impossible. You will not succeed."

But we did succeed. And we should use the same way, the same experience, to take the next step, the creation of a Claims Commission, and then the full compensation mechanism with all the discussion about reparations.

"This isn’t just about reparations and money. It’s also about souls and lives"

Let’s talk about post-war Ukraine. What are the conditions in which Ukraine could become a successful and prosperous country?

After these 11 years of war, Ukraine is in incredibly difficult conditions.

I’m always impressed with the resilience of Ukrainians. But just think what 11 years means for the youngest generation. Twenty-year-old Ukrainians have spent half of their lives in the war context!  

Repairing this will be absolutely key for the people of Ukraine and for the country.

This is not just about reparations and money, it is also about repairing souls and lives. To have the force and confidence in the future, to build a positive future for Ukraine and for the Ukrainian people.

I would also bet that one of the key issues we will have to tackle will be the shortage of people, especially young people and children, who have left Ukraine. Do you see a special role for the Council of Europe in bringing them back home?

This is exactly what I’ve mentioned several times. It’s not possible to have good positive social development without peace, stability and prospects.

I’ve known Ukraine for many years. I’ve been visiting Ukraine since 2009.

I think Ukraine has everything you need to have a prosperous future. But right now you need peace, relations based on the rule of law, stability, and prospects for the people. That is what we will need to rebuild.

Then Ukrainians will return. We just have to create those good conditions.

You mentioned young people abroad. As Secretary General of Council of Europe, I just decided yesterday to appoint a new Special Envoy for the Children of Ukraine – the former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Iceland, Mrs Thórdís Gylfadóttir. She knows Ukraine. She was in charge of the preparation of the summit in Reykjavik dedicated to the support of Ukraine. She’s also a lawyer.

"After a long phase of convergence on values, Europe is in a very difficult phase of divergent forces"

The Council of Europe certainly faces significant challenges with other countries. Azerbaijan and Georgia have even stopped engaging with the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE). How do you see the future of the Council of Europe? Should it be an organisation of like-minded countries?

That's a very interesting question.

The Council of Europe has 46 proud and equal members. We are familiar with a huge diversity of culture, languages, histories and people in the organisation. This diversity is a very strong asset for the European continent.

But at the same time, it’s challenging to manage it.

For the last 76 years [since the CoE was founded – EP], we have succeeded in being a European family united around strong values – democracy, the rule of law, human rights, and around the European Convention on Human Rights.

And now we have some concerns about some countries. You know why? Because of the context of the previous years.

Democracy is backsliding everywhere.

We also see very negative developments on democracy, the rule of law and human rights. It is a strong concern for us.

After a long phase of convergence on values, now Europe is in a very difficult phase with a lot of divergent forces.

My role, our role, even if it is difficult, is to always be in contact with all actors, to speak with everybody. I think it is always necessary to have dialogue where it is possible.

The CoE decided that it's not possible with Russia.

Exactly, there is always a limit. That’s why the Council of Europe decided to expel Russia in 2022.

You must try with dialogue if you have a certain level of respect for the values, even if it is diverging. Russia launched a war of aggression against its neighbour, destroying all the values – democracy, the rule of law and human rights – respecting nothing.

Under these conditions, there was no minimal commitment to our values.

Azerbaijan has not crossed that red line yet?

It is a different situation.

With Azerbaijan, it has been quite complicated in the last months with the intergovernmental cooperation.

I was in Baku last November to try to restart all the work that we can do together on the monitoring and all elements. It is progressing. So we must always try, from the moment when certain conditions are fulfilled.

Sergiy Sydorenko,

Editor, European Pravda